Bobby Ong (00:02):

Welcome to the CoinGecko podcast. I'm your host Bobby Ong. Each week we will be interviewing someone from the blockchain industry to learn more about this fast moving crypto currency economy. If this is your first time listening, then thanks for coming. The CoinGecko podcast is produced each week to help you stay ahead of the curve. Show notes can be found at podcast.coingecko.com. I highly encourage you to join our newsletter where we send out top news in the crypto industry every Monday to Friday. Come back often and feel free to add the podcast to your favorite RSS feed or iTunes. You can also follow us on Twitter and Telegram at CoinGecko.

Bobby Ong (00:39):

Welcome to the CoinGecko Podcast. For today’s episode, we have the honour of welcoming Professor Aleksandar Kuzmanovic, Co-Founder & Chief Architect of Bloxroute.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (00:47):

Thank you.

Bobby Ong (00:48):

Professor Kuzmanovic is a Net Neutrality expert and full Professor in the Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at Northwestern University. Professor Kuzmanovic's work includes writing the TCP-LP protocol deployed in Linux that allows bulk data transfers without compromising performance and developing DDOS countermeasures deployed by Akamai, the world’s largest cloud provider. Professor Kuzmanovic co-founded Google’s Measurement Lab initiative for monitoring global Net Neutrality and the National Science Foundation (NSF) awarded him a NSF Career Award for his work on Net Neutrality. Welcome to the show Professor Kuzmanovic. .

Aleksander Kusmanovic (01:23):

Thank you so much again. Thank you. It's a great honor to be on this podcast.

Bobby Ong (01:23):

Yea, for our first question, maybe can you explain to us in your simplest manner what is bloXroute and why is it important?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (01:59):

Yes, so bloXroute is I like to say the first Layer 0 system that helps scale all blockchain, right. So basically layer zero means a networking layer, right. Because when we came to this field, layer one is already taken by, it was called the Consensus layer, layer two was on top of it. And it said, listen you guys are missing one layer, so it is a layer zero. So it is a networking layer and basically, what we are building is a thing called a blockchain distribution network. My expertise and experience comes from the internet world and content distribution network. And basically what we can build is a blockchain distribution network, which is a network really specialize to improve the performance of blockchain. Okay. And so it is compatible with all blockchain systems that you can think of and at the same time it is compatible with all other layers, right. So if you have a very efficient layer one, for example we have some scalability solution here, well it is going to work strictly better with a networking solution applies below. So I'm not sure how effective my introduction was and explanation, but I hope we can dive a little bit deeper during the talk.

Bobby Ong (02:53):

Yeah. I think that was a good high level introduction to bloXroute. You mentioned earlier about bloXroute being a blockchain distribution network (BDN) that basically utilizes, from my reading, a global network of servers optimize for network performance. So based on my understanding, it almost seems like BDN is similar in concept with the content delivery network (CDN). Is that correct?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (03:16):

That basically is a correct statement. So the common things are, we also have fairly a large number of distributors of high end servers around the world. And so reaching out whose data quickly from any of the endpoint to all the nodes in the system. That context are pretty similar to content distribution network. However, what is different is contrary to the content distribution network, they're sending data, they're basically the network itself is fairly transparent to the data they are sending. Here, we add a piece of software to the endpoint. This is called a gateway. And the whole purpose of a gateway software or the endpoint which exist in BDN but does not exist in CDN, is to basically adjust the communication messages or data sent in the blockchain system to convert messages from the blockchain world into the bloXroute messages and at the same time to push the caching of the data all the way to the endpoint. In content distribution network, the caching happens at the edge servers here, in our case, we push this caching all the way to the endpoint. And this is very important because the last line is the critical one and have our gateways deployed all the way to the endpoints. We are able to significantly improve the performance of the system.

Bobby Ong (04:45):

From my reading, I understand that bloXroute will cache things such that 100 times less data is required to be sent out to the networks. So that's how things get speed up. But like a 100X improvement is a large improvement, right? Like instead of sending 100 megabyte, you're only sending one megabyte. How do you do that like what's the secret?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (05:04):

Basically the key observation is contrary to the content distribution network. When somebody is sending them a movie, somebody is broadcasting the movie, that content is pretty unique. And it's hard to predict what it's going to be and yes it's hard to compress. I mean, people do some compression techniques and stuff like that, but that has it's limitation. If you compress by 1.5 or 2X, that's pretty good result, right? So the question is how do we even go to this larger degree of compression. So basically the key observation here is that data in a blockchain system is very deterministic and it's repeated. What it means is that transactions are first sent within a system in general, independently of a blockchain system that you're using. And then at some point you have validators or miners, who put these transactions in blocks and then decide on their order and send them into the network.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (06:01):

This is the basics of blockchain. So basically the key observation is that you need to send twice. Once you send transaction, and then the second time you're sending these transactions within the block. This creates a huge opportunity for caching, right? Because if you can transmit this transaction to everybody in the system efficiently and cache and use identifier structure this transaction. For example, in bitcoin or, for example Ethereum, transaction could be for example 500 bytes, right? Internally what we do is we represent these 500 bytes with four bytes. Okay? So this is more than 100X improvement. And so, when the block is sent in the blockchain system, instead of sending the original ,we utilize these shorter identifier. And hence for every transaction that is 500 bytes long, we send just four bytes.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (06:57):

And hence it is more like 100 megabytes long in the real world, in the raw block. In our world, it becomes much smaller. It becomes less than a one megabyte. And hence, utilize these significant redundancy in the data that typically exist pretty strongly in blockchain system, to basically move on and significant reduce the amount of data, plus we sent this data more efficiently if we utilize better network and parts. And there're different components of our system that makes it far more efficient, but these are the basics. And hence, we utilize this network wide caching for blockchain.

Bobby Ong (07:42):

So essentially it's like, instead of sending in the block, there's usually the header and bunch of transactions, instead of sending all the full transactions, which is 500 bytes each, you represent it as four bytes. But would't this mean that the structure of the block is already changed then?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (07:56):

Just a moment. So basically this is the type of data that happens between gateways and within the bloXroute net. However, the gateway sits next to the blockchain node. Right? And so when the blockchain node talks to our gateway, it looks like it's spoken just to another point. And hence, the fact that our gateway compresses the data, sends and decompress on the other end, it's completely invisible to the blockchain system. It is completely transparent to the blockchain systems. However, in the background, what we are doing is we are making things far more efficient. Compression may not be the best word here because typically compression, of course it means using less amount of data but people use this term in different domains, different, maybe it's not the best term, but basically it's shortening the amount of, shrinking the amount of data that needs to be sent.

Bobby Ong (08:56):

It feels like I'm talking to a real world Pied Piper from the Silicon Valley show of compression, having like a high throughput high output in the network.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (09:02):

Yes. This is why I'm trying to make, kind of explain that we're using no fancy, advanced compression techniques people use in different domain. This is far more simple but far more efficient because I mean, tell me another field that you can do more than 100X compression. I mean, that's not easy to get. So we are utilize this natural feature of the blockchain system in order to make this happen.

Bobby Ong (09:28):

So currently on Ethereum, it has a transaction capacity of about nine transactions per second or nine TPS. When bloXroute goes on a full capacity on Ethereum, what will be the theoretical and maybe I should say the practical TPS output that can be achieved?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (09:43):

So basically we had our experiment with Bitcoin Cash because this is the first blockchain system that we started modelling with. We were really grateful to the Bitcoin Cash community because they're very supportive and they are the kind of folks that like to talk about large blocks and so on. So there, we had experiments with a large number of nodes on three continents and we were capable of pushing the TPS more than 1500 TPS. On Ethereum, I mean, we did some tests internally on the testnet and we are capable of pushing, I think, close to 1000 or so, but it really depends. So basically, Ethereum can scale easily up to 1000 transactions but currently, and even more down the road and without anything, Ethereum 1.0 can do that right now. So we are working with the largest mining pools in Ethereum. Once we deployed our gateways on these miners, after some time they increase the block size by 35%. And so while we were not on the table [inaudible], we feel that, we gave confidence to the community that indeed, it's possible to increase the block size without risking any of the security and centralization problem.

Bobby Ong (10:57):

When will this go live? I understand you guys are working with Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash and Ontology, I'm trying to send a transaction on Ethereum and the guest fees are way high. I'm trying to pay with 2 Gwei, but takes like, I don't know, it's been two days and it still doesn't go ahead with this transaction. So I'm looking forward to 1000 TPS Ethereum.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (11:13):

So basically, the key idea behind bloXroute is to push for scalability. Once the result of capacity, this is when the cost of sendingthe transaction goes down and this we believe is the key, of course that should help Ethereum or any other blockchain. Now regarding the deployment, currently we support the Ethereum mainnet. If you want to send a transaction to bloXroute, you just go on our web page, you download our open source code, you install it on your miner and you can basically send a transaction. This is one way to do it. The other ways, if you just have a wallet and you don't want to install a gateway source node, you can simply install a small code in your wallet, which helps you directly send transaction to our network without getting any gateway or any node. This is very useful. Regarding other blockchain systems, we are also supporting Bitcoin Cash, on top of that we are working on hardly Ontology and then it's going to come pretty soon. And on top of that, we have other blockchains lined up. So we are open minded and we are happy to work with any blockchain system that wants to scale, that needs to scale and has enough of the ecosystem that we feel is going to be successful.

Bobby Ong (12:37):

Let's go back to the example of Ethereum, right. I literally try to do this transaction. I wanted to withdraw some of this DeFi protocol and I was using metamask. And I tried to send a transaction with some, low Gwei by cost like $6, $10 in like smart contract transaction fee. So I reduce it to like 2 Gwei and it's still like $4 or so. How do I use meta mask and connect to bloXroute and send this transaction with very low gas fee.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (13:04):

So basically, in order to send a transaction to bloXroute, the endpoint software needs to be bloXroute compatible. That means, currently what we do is, if you have a mining node, you can simply just install an open source software. And if you have any type of open source or anything like that, you can just take a snippet of code from our webpage and put it in your application and you should be able to connect directly to our servers and send transactions directly to us. Currently things are all completely free. So now is the best time to actually do it. So basically this is how it works.

Bobby Ong (13:45):

I feel that it's more relatable for miners, but not really for the end user who's using...

Aleksander Kusmanovic (13:52):

I mean, you're correct. However, because we figured out that there is a large community out there that doesn't really care about mining or doesn't even have a mining node, but still would like to take this opportunity, this is why we have enabled this small, a piece of code that you can put in your application that you're getting embed in the application. It's very simple to kind of merge with the application and then you can send things directly to us without even going through anybody else. At the same time, if you're, for example in Ethereum, if you're using Infura or anybody like that or these providers ,there you can, for example, just select bloXroute as an option. This is coming up pretty soon and then once you do that your transactions are directly routed through bloXroute.

Bobby Ong (14:40):

So what would it take for like, I guess the key thing to scale Ethereum to 1000 TPS would be to get more miners involve and all these miners install this code. If they don't install this code then, Ethereum will not scale. So it's kind of like, you're going to get the buy ins from all this miners to install and scale Ethereum, right? It's kind of important approach.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (15:03):

Yes. We understand that. And this is why we started working with miners from day zero. And basically, currently we are supporting more than 70% of the mining hashrate in Ethereum. So we have the largest mining pools, like Smart Pool, MultiPool, Ethermine. And we also helping others because actually it appears that actually we are capable of helping even more, the smaller mining, right. Because if you are large mining pool, we improved them. However, the smaller ones are more disadvantaged and then smaller mining pools with us will be beneficial. And so we are definitely working hard on increasing the number of miners that they're working with. At the same time, we are working with the end users [inaudible], with aggregators, such as Infura and others, right. With large trading firms and whoever has any reason to send transaction on chain. And so once we have a sufficient amount of deployment, this is when the things can start moving up.

Bobby Ong (16:10):

What would be that cut off point that you need? 50% of the option or 60, 70%?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (16:12):

There is no magic number, the more, the better. And actually the system can still operate quite well even if we don't have the full deployment, you can move up. However, at some point, if you really want to push the system all the way to the high TPS rate, then those who really want to the part of that high scale system would need to deploy bloXroute.

Bobby Ong (16:35):

Where are we right now? Are we at 20% deployment? 50%?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (16:35):

Currently in terms of the hash power, we have more than 70% of the hash power.

Bobby Ong (16:43):

On Ethereum?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (16:43):

Yeah, on Ethereum. And so this is really, we think of a pretty good number. And at the same time, we are working hard on bringing in more transaction generating entities that will be wallets, that will be aggregators and many other entities so that we can actually, the whole community can move to this better position which is high transaction per second rate, which is good for everybody. Everybody is benefiting when the system is scalable. So these basically in essential.

Bobby Ong (17:18):

So if we are at 70% deployment for Ethereum miners, does that mean like Ethereum has highest transaction limit right now? Is no longer 90 TPS but maybe I dunno, 200 TPS already at this point in time?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (17:31):

So that really depends on the miners. Miners are the one who can decide how and when to increase the block size up to some limit. And so I think easily, this can go even right now with this level of deployment of bloxroute, I think it can go easily to double, triple that number without any problems. However, to push forward it would be great to have even more, even larger deployment of miners because then nobody's left behind. And miners have no barrier of entrance. Our code is open source which charge miners nothing, and so its really a very simple game in our mind.

Bobby Ong (18:14):

My next question actually is if every minor is connected to bloXroute's BDN through this gateway that you talked, every nodes connected to gateway. Wouldn't this represent some sort of a centralization risk to the entire ecosystem?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (18:26):

We get this question a lot and we keep explaining that there's some cases, let me explain how it works. So basically indeed, we recommended that the nodes connect to bloXroute because bloXroute is the fastest. However, we do not tell the miners, we do not require anybody to say "Hey, don't connect to others." You still need the peer-to-peer network. However, peer-to-peer network is needed as an auditing tool, to kinda, you still need a backup, right? And so basically the peer-to-peer is needed to have the guarantees that even if bloXroute goes down or something happens, you can still have things going through. So think of bloXroute as just like improving the existing peer-to-peer network without getting rid of the peer-to-peer network itself. And this makes nodes independent for bloXroute and they have other parts in case things go wrong for the technical reasons, they can still have their blocks sent. And so the systems survive independent of bloXroute. So bloXroute is not a single point of failure and at the same time, it is only providing an improvement over an existing system, which we don't change in any way.

Bobby Ong (19:46):

Yeah. It's kinda like master peer in a list of peer-to-peer network right?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (19:47):

Yes. Master peer - but we don't recommend that you abandon all other people. We just say, "Hey, this is great and you can only benefit from these. You can back up parts, you get all these other routes. And hence, it is a compromise that still gives you a better performance, but you're not giving up the kind of peer-to-peer and decentralized nature of a blockchain system. I mean, in short this is how it works.

Bobby Ong (20:13):

Is there anyone else that is working on layer zero solution like what you guys are doing right now? Or are you guys the only one?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (20:13):

There are people the providing better networking, kind of a support for blockchains. Like, "Hey, you know what, if your are for example, in the part of the world that is not very well connected to the part of the world, if you use a least part or something like that, you can experience a better performance and stuff like that. Now, what I want to see about bloXroute is that we are not, I mean we are layer zero, we are networking solution but we are not speaking at networking solution here. Basically because there is a lot of so called magic happening in the background.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (20:54):

Right? All the caching, all the hard work, all the synchronization of data, it's not simply let's have a better method that doesn't give you scale. At all. Right. To get to scale, you can do a much bigger work, which is you need to quickly just transmit transaction to the system. You need to cache them at the end points. Then when blocks are send to them to compress them to again send them throughout. So networking is absolutely. I mean, I'm a hundred percent of networking person. That's where my expertise is from, but it's not just networking. It's more like kind of a smart networking in a club, right? It's a smart things in the background that you need to do versus simply speaking up. Speaking up is great, but it has it's limitation.

Bobby Ong (21:41):

What are your thoughts about Layer 1 and Layer 2 scaling solution? Which solution do you think will bring the highest impact in increasing each blockchain transaction output?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (21:47):

There are many creative things on Layer 1, Layer 2. And typically when people ask me, so are these your competitors, are you competing against them? I'm saying, no. I mean, the Layer 0 are capable of strictly improving the performance and helping any other solution. Is it Layer 1 or Layer 2, it doesn't matter. Right? And so there are obviously some pretty good social, people are talking about sharding I think that is coming pretty soon. I mean, in such a perform. And of course that's an interesting approach. There are these Layer 2 solutions where you put some coins at the side and you do blockchain transaction. All of these things make sense. And I'm not against, I mean, typically in blockchain world I realize that people are very opinionated and they like to say, "No, no no. My solution is the best not somebody else's." I mean, we are, ourselves we are not a blockchain at all. And so we are a system to help scale other blockchain. If these blockchain systems are already quite advanced, more advanced than the first generation blockchain system like bitcoin for example, you have now Ontology, you have CoinFlux.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (22:54):

I mean we are working with these projects. They already have a pretty advanced Layer 1, some even Layer 2 approach, but when I come to them, I tell them, "That's so great! Good luck with that. We really like what you're doing." However, the generic problem is, you're still transactions that you need to transmit to distribute nodes and then you have blocks that needs to somehow reach. Everybody gets to be a synchronized on what is happening in the system. And to do that, you really, really do need a really strong networking cloud solution, which is basically what we are like.

Bobby Ong (23:39):

Do you guys currently support bitcoin or is that somewhat in the plan to support bitcoin blockchain in the next year or so?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (23:46):

Well, basically bitcoin itself, of course, is the most valuable whatever cryptocurrency and blockchain. We, of course initially started working with Bitcoin Cash at the time. Then they fought for bitcoin because they were the ones pushing for scalability. Bitcoin community is more focused on like these super value type of idea. They're saying, we don't want to scale on chain. Basically we can get later to another things to scale that stuff.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (24:15):

And so basically, we're compatible with bitcoin. And basically we run our nodes against bitcoin because it's a very, very well structured, well organized blockchain. And hence, we check how well we're doing by simply measuring ourselves against bitcoin. However, for political ideological or philosophical reasons they're not into scaling. And we respect that. There are many, many other blockchain that say, "Hey, we do need blockchain scaling." And so if we go after and we collaborate with those who believe that having a scalable blockchain at Layer 0 is on demand.

Bobby Ong (24:55):

I believe you guys have bloXroute tokens called BLXR right? What will be its token model? What blockchain will the token be issued on and how will it work when you guys have this scalability solution across these various different blockchain?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (25:09):

Yes. And this is an interesting thing. We are not a blockchain ourselves, but we are a blockchain company and we were thinking like, "Hey, you know, blockchain company, we need to have a token." What blockchain company doesn't have a token. And so basically our approach was to simply have a security type of token and that all the revenues, the idea is, there is a fixed number of BLXR token ever. Like 10 million BLXR. Then all the revenues from all the different blockchain systems that we are serving, all the revenues that we collect, 100% of those revenues are directly streamlined to the holders of the BLXR. And so it's very, very simple. So if you own for example, 10% of the BLXR token and in one day we are 10 bitcoins, you immediately earn one bitcoin on the same day. It immediately directly goes to your pocket and you can do with that whatever you want. And so it is a simple dividend based model where the holder of the token is getting directly not profits because when you have a company, then company has its own bills to pay and stuff like that. And hence, shareholders actually at the end of the year, share the profits. Here, the revenues created by bloXroute BDN network directly to the holders of it. So it's a very, very simple and very transparent system. And so that's the key idea behind the BLXR.

Bobby Ong (26:41):

And how would the BLXR token gain revenue? So like if you use the bloXroute network, you have to pay some sort of fee?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (26:52):

Currently our system is completely free to use. However, we're going to have two tier system. There you see a small number of transaction just the individual user and you know, generate a lot of traffic, then it's completely free forever. However, if you are for example, more than 100 transactions a day, this is when a tiny fee comes into play and so basically this is how we gain revenues from all blockchain systems that we serve. And then those revenues are directly channeled to the holders of our token and hence, they can decide to keep in their accounts or just take, and then do whatever they like with their money.

Bobby Ong (27:41):

And when it's paid, it's paid in BLXR token I supposed right? So if there's a fee to be paid...

Aleksander Kusmanovic (27:41):

No, no, no. It can be paid in any currency. It can be in the native currency of the particular token. You can pay to US dollars. It's really independence from, it's not paid in BLXR for sure. So BLXR is just an account that holds all this different currencies and then you are free to do whatever you like in real time with that money.

Bobby Ong (28:03):

And will this BLXR token be traded on some exchanges at some point or it's just, because its security is only limited...

Aleksander Kusmanovic (28:09):

So we had this discussion. We were founded in 2017 and ever since we have a lot of, our intents from the very beginning was to make all these 100% legal so that people don't think like, "Oh, I have this token. Is it legal or is it not legal or whatever?" And very soon we figured out that this is going to be our utility token. Right? And hence, this is how it is structured. And so basically, currently we had several rounds of token sale. However, [inaudible] investors. They are working hard and we hope that sometimes in the future, we are going to be able to offer a Regulation A+, a type of a sale, which would enable us to sell the token to the wider community. And you don't have to be a [inaudible] or anything like that. And regarding the trading, it could be traded. There are possible exchanges already working with the security type of tokens. And so we are going to be traded there. I think the trade is going to start within one year.

Bobby Ong (29:11):

Yeah. It sounds like what the Blockstake guys are doing. They did a Regulation A+ sale as well.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (29:18):

Yes. They were pioneers in that domain and we talked to them and I mean, we understand the way they did things. We think that Reg A+ can be even better than that, can be even more or less restrictive and more open. And so we are hopeful that we will be able to get there because our idea is to make this available to everybody. This is how we think we can strengthen our position. So people can actually see benefits from investing with us.

Bobby Ong (29:46):

That sounds very interesting. So maybe one last questions like, what is the plan for bloXroute in 2020 and beyond?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (29:54):

In 2020 and onward, so basically currently we are really focused on Ethereum because, of course there are so many different blockchains that we're working with. However we really want to, kinda close the circle on Ethereum. And what that means is that in addition to having 70% of the miners, we want to push that boundary above 90%, at least for the hash power on Ethereum.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (30:16):

And on top of that, we really are into getting clients. Getting clients means, getting dApps, getting aggregators, getting really whole Ethereum community on bloXroute. This is really our primary goal. On top of that, we're also working closely currently with Ontology. We are about to, I think release our [inaudible] with Ontology sometime during the year. This is definitely the case. We are working also with some other blockchains. These are Quorum, Conflux and a few others. And so our goal is to keep pushing and getting, I mean, we're not really, that interested in supporting each and every blockchain are there because different blockchain got different page and not everybody is equally must but those who reach, who we believe, reach the threshold of becoming a real thing that can really attract all users and turn a lot of traffic. These are the ones that we are interested in moving forward with. But in principle, we are open minded to and open to all blockchains out there.

Bobby Ong (31:30):

That's very exciting. Looking forward to see all these plans to come to fruition this year. Okay. Last question from me. No more after this. Someone's interested to learn about bloXroute, what's the best place to follow and learn more?

Aleksander Kusmanovic (31:36):

The best way to learn about bloXroute, come to our website. We have quite good videos, short videos about "Hey, this is how bloXroute work." Then there are pretty good short presentations, maybe 20, 25 minutes where you can see where Uri talk about, I talk about, or Eleni talk about bloXroute. And so just watch one of those talks and things are going to be much clearer for you. [inaudible]. In addition, we also give these kind of educational videos right? So we have our developers are going to talk about some feature of bloXroute and so on. So we are really trying to how to kind of reach out to the broader community. So, I mean, not everybody is technology oriented, we wanna kinda simplify it so people don't have to waste a lot of time. But still gain a pretty good sense of what is that we're doing and what we are.

Bobby Ong (32:31):

I agree. I watch some of the videos on your site and I was really confuse about what bloXroute does and after watching it, it was really easy to understand what you guys are doing. So I would add all these things in the shownote. Professor Aleksandar Kusmanovic, thank you very much for taking the time to come on the CoinGecko Podcast. I think I definitely learn a lot. I hope all of you learn as well.

Aleksander Kusmanovic (32:58):

Thank you. It was a great pleasure and I look forward whenever we have big news, I'm happy to come and tell you about it.

Bobby Ong (32:58):

Yeah, looking forward to it. Thank you very much again.

Speaker 4 (33:01):

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Speaker 5 (33:20):

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